Episode 23, Jeremy Eugenio, Regional CFO Asia Pacific, Brookfield Asset Management

Jeremy Eugenio is Regional CFO Asia Pacific for Brookfield Asset Management.

He is a senior finance executive with over 15 years of experience across the asset management, industrial services, media, energy and financial services sectors. Prior to Brookfield, he worked for Seven Group Holdings and Babcock and Brown.

In his current role in the Infrastructure team, he is responsible for all reporting obligations across Brookfield’s infrastructure assets in the Asia Pacific region. He also leads the finance and due diligence workstreams for all Infrastructure acquisitions and dispositions, capital management initiatives as well as the onboarding and integration of portfolio companies.

To contact Richard Holmes please call 0403 513 720 or reach out on richardh@hprconsulting.com. https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardholmesfinancerecruiter/

Transcript

Please note that this has been transcribed by AI/Bots so there may be typos and the occasional strange things happening.

Richard Holmes

0:00

Welcome to the numbers people Podcast, where each week we're going to be speaking with some highly regarded senior finance professionals and career experts looking into the ins and outs of what makes finance people and their teams great. The podcast is proudly sponsored by HPR Consulting, a leading executive finance recruitment firm. I'm your host, Richard Holmes.

Richard Holmes

0:24

In today's episode, I have the pleasure of talking with Jeremy Eugenia. Jeremy is regional CFO Asia Pacific for Brookfield Asset Management.

Richard Holmes

0:33

He is a senior finance executive with over 15 years of experience across the asset management, industrial services, media, energy and financial services sectors. Prior to Brookfield, he worked with seven Group Holdings in Babcock and brown.

Richard Holmes

0:49

Jeremy Hi, you can see you likewise. Thank you, Jim. Great to have you on the show. I've known Jeremy for a number of years actually heard about Jeremy maybe 1012 years ago now

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

1:01

from Babcock & Brown days. And yeah, pleasure to be on the show. I think Jeremy's got a really interesting story and take it away, Jeremy. Thanks, Richard. Yeah, so I mean, it's almost kind of full circle here. My role at Brookfield Regional CFO for Brookfield infrastructure assets here within Australia and New Zealand. And

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

1:26

funnily enough, the kind of connection to Babcock and brown my past is that the reason why Brookfield has a presence here in Australia is because of the carcass of the Cochrane brown infrastructure transaction that happened as part of the GFC. I've been here for almost two and a half years now. And it's been a fantastic are instead of necessarily being linear, in enjoyable it perhaps in a personal sense, if you ask my wife

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

1:58

along the way, but you guys still need from a career perspective. And having moved here from an eight year stint at seven Group Holdings, is certainly something that

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

2:10

with a lot of joy, and happiness,

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

2:14

and and you touch on then that eight year stint at seven, you obviously experienced a lot during that time, and saw that, but our company evolve. And in I'll just say you've been here for what, two and a half years? Yeah, yeah. And what what was the catalyst for the move? And that's a fair point. So when you're Richard, my CFO, Richard Richards,

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

2:36

we had these really honest discussions, and it would generally be at some ungodly hour of the night, because we were the only ones in the office and, you know, amongst other things, you know, from from life and you know, existentialism, you know, it was really a question of like, what do you want to do next?

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

2:55

And, you know, we'd have these over the course of the past two years, and he kind of put forward

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

3:02

suggestions, and therefore, reasons, probably more along the kind of family aspects in terms of not wanting to kind of relocate, or perhaps industries not

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

3:15

being a right fit, perhaps. And I've always said, No, that's not the right. And we came to one particular conversation one you have you said, well, and he mentioned in the really best way possible, but he said, I think you need to go and, and I, we had a really good relationship, and we continue to still do and

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

3:36

yeah, that was kind of a really hard moment for me, because being in the organization for so long, and being a known quantity, building that level of brand goodwill trust to have to kind of a consider what was out there in in, in the world, you know, be update my CV, which, which hadn't been touched in the best part of like, nine years, was just quite quite overwhelming. But yeah, Richard, from his perspective, you've always had the line of, I'd rather have people for, you know, two or three good years, and then have you for more years, and, you know, not not really making the most of that not just the individual, but for you as a person. And that's kind of one of the great things about that, Richard, so yeah, then it kind of spurred me to look around. Yeah, and if funnily enough, it's almost like past becoming present with with Dr. Brian Brookfield and kind of gravitating back to infrastructure, this industry. Yeah. And that's

Richard Holmes

4:52

good leadership from from Richard as well.

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

4:55

Oh, absolutely. Right. I think from Mark perspective. It's funny, I know, we used to have these kind of chats as well. And I said to Richard sgh was his first listed CFO geek, and the first day that he started at his church was actually the birth of my first daughter. And so it's great, you know, great kind of collision of worlds. I was on parental leave. And whilst I was on parental leave, he called me and said, Hey, meeting, great, you know, being sleep deprived and didn't know which way was. And yeah, the time, my boss, who was the group financial controller, had had also left. And in which it's kind of stubbornness, wisdoms, silliness, he said, I'm not going to put someone above you, and feel the group of C roll. But you know, I'm not promising you anything. But let's just see how we go. And it always kind of say to rich if I didn't think I would have necessarily done the same thing, if it was my first listing CFO gig, to to take a chance on someone that he didn't know from a bar. So then, perhaps, you know, if not anything, otherwise, where you might have heard from, whether it was right or wrong, that you probably should wipe the slate with the whole finance team. And he didn't. So yeah, the rest is history, as they say, and hopefully, we both got what we needed and continue to do. So. That relationship. That's great.

Richard Holmes

6:50

It's great that he took that chance as well. And David, the opportunity. And as you said, the rest is history. And it just proves you can it works.

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

6:58

Yes. Yeah. I I try and, you know, think back in even in my own hiring decisions, if if, if that level of one good turn deserves another. And yeah, there are moments where I kind of get to the legend. Back, but yeah, he's certainly very special in that regard.

Richard Holmes

7:21

And how he's likely Brookfield.

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

7:23

Oh, it's, it's really exciting that I think, you know, we're not we're not for everyone, perhaps in that regard. So, from a from a business perspective, you know, everyone is quite aware of the mountains of liquidity and capital that's out there looking for a home. You even pre pandemic, you're, we're within an asset class in infrastructure. That is, yeah, absolutely, we'll place to take, you know, hopefully, our fair share, and part of that is predicated on making sure that we continue to make prudent investments, acquire assets at the right value, and obviously, more importantly, execute on the value creation story. Yep, looking more specifically within the region, you know, certainly no shortage of infrastructure activity within Australia, New Zealand, and in Asia pack. You'll be within the renewable space, you know, your data, infrastructure, which has just been an explosion of data usage post, or during pandemic. And even, yeah, call it traditional infrastructure. as, you know, various assets start to age and we see a rebalancing out of coal, and so I fought. So a lot of opportunities, very exciting.

Richard Holmes

8:57

I was gonna say exciting times, she's,

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

8:59

yeah, that's a blessing and a curse.

Richard Holmes

9:01

It's good. And how do you guys survive through COVID?

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

9:05

Yeah, well, that's that's an interesting one. I think that's definitely the key word survive. And, you know, we, as an organization, we've generally been quite conservative insofar as our work, practices and presence in the office call it and certainly COVID is forced us to be a lot more flexible with regards to people, you're working remotely. And you're the level of perhaps trust that we all outlive trust that we now have in our employees and not necessarily physically being in the office and knowing that they will deliver into what high quality as if they were in the office. And, you know, certainly we went through our first quarter end during COVID you know, just shy this time. Last And which had never been done before. It wasn't elegant. And also having to introduce and bring on new staff during that time was was quite a challenge. But you I think if you look back and we look back and see what we were able to achieve, you know, we definitely survive, you know, there's an element of of thriving, but for us, I think remote working will always be perhaps a secondary consideration in it from a survival perspective, and then for thriving in the kind of advancement and development of Brookfield as a whole. It's that physical presence where we do thrive.

Richard Holmes

10:48

That's always good to hear. And, and listening to your story, Jeremy, you've you've done really well in your career, what advice would you give to someone wanting to pursue a

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

10:57

career like yours? And this is the two parts that perhaps you I certainly didn't necessarily think I would fall into accounting. I mean, in fact, when I left high school, I was absolutely adamant not to do accounting and, and it was good, my mom was in accounting, I thought was really boring. You know, I entered into economics degree, first year out of uni, are quite like that. And you know, that, unfortunately, kind of the War of the numbers, if you will, kind of was too strong. And I found myself actually asking my mum, what is it that you do, and I thought that's quite interesting. And you're literally going down that proverbial rabbit hole, and you realize, Oh, crap, like, this actually looks like something I might be interested in. second semester, within my first year, I transferred into a commerce accounting degree, and really enjoyed it. So you I think, perhaps that that kind of bit of advice of wanting to perhaps, sometimes it finds you right is probably the the main thing and you shouldn't just kind of that level of gut feel. Sometimes you think you know what you want, and you try your hand and it doesn't quite work. And yet for me, I liked it. And fortunately, it's done well, by me now God sent you Well, yeah. So that's what we did the key piece, just be open to your gut. Yeah.

Richard Holmes

12:46

And that's, that's great. I think just listening to you, the other guests as well, on the show. I think the majority of the finance people I've interviewed have fallen into accounting, not one of them left lescure thinking I want to be an accountant, or finance person. And it's, yeah, I love the fight and say find you. And, and we talked about Richard Richards, who's known in the Sydney market, or the Australian market to be a great leader, with the exception of Richard who, who's influenced you the most

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

13:15

Yeah. And so I've been really fortunate to have some fantastic leaders in my time. When I was at his church, the reason why I got the role of HGH was through one of my old bosses as well at Babcock and brown, Philip, by the note, Scott noble, who's now CFO at ingenia. Group. And, and, you know, Scott, yeah, stylistically very different to Richard. Right. But once again, we got on really well, during our Babcock and brown days, he will always kind of, for me some really interesting work and I didn't necessarily know what I was doing perhaps at the time, but thankfully made enough moving impression that as as the kind of caucus of Babcock and Brown was winding up, you know, he and he had had just started his role at serving group as a group of see we reached out and said, Hey, are you interested? I said, like, that sounds interesting. I didn't know what that was from a bar soap given HGH is just newly formed entity with with kind of the media interest in the industrial services, interests of Kerry Stokes being put together so and I think for him to give that level of once again, like the trust in putting yourself out there was was was really instrumental. In my career. I still have great relationships with Scott and Richard outside of a blue bush professional space, which is

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

14:59

plenty There

Richard Holmes

15:01

certainly helps your career.

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

15:02

Oh, yeah, it does. Certainly that level of a number of things like advocacy. Certainly, there are a number of things I'm aware of that perhaps people wouldn't necessarily have given me the light of day if not for for either Scott Richard fronting and advocating, but also that element of bouncing ideas off them right and saying, oh, like, I've got a problem or like, do you remember when we did this? And how do you draw a reminder? Again? How did you think of that? And what was you going through? Yeah. And, you know, 10 times out of 10, they will either know the answer. or know someone that will know the answer. And I'm not, I don't mean that in that kind of just tell me your answers. But for me that the understanding of what are the considerations like, or I can at least from the throne, thinking about x, y, Zed? Am I missing something here and blow things up or look at like a total goose. So that level of bouncing things off and as long as a soundboard is fantastic? Whether it be an informal mentor, or formal, like for me, like that's been absolutely valuable in my curry, even in a personal sense, to just say, hey, how the hell did you balance setting? Like, yeah, isn't trying to do that. Through your career. It's just, it's, it's humbling, right? Yeah,

Richard Holmes

16:39

I can imagine. Yeah. And we touched on before we started recording the show, about leadership. And that's leadership as an open door policy, which they obviously practice, in terms of what we preach. It's great in reflecting on your career, what, what hurdles Have you faced, and how did you overcome them?

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

16:56

Yeah, so that I mean, that's a really good question. You know, a couple of kind of hurdles that come to mind was, certainly, when I joined HGH, I had kind of call it a very basic working knowledge of what it was to be in a kind of listed environment. And certainly, from a skill set perspective, I knew a couple of things a at least knew the boss, and he was a good backer in bi at least knew that. If I didn't know the answer, I was going to work my ass off until, yeah, they probably kind of found it in a mix of kind of fake it till you make it if you will, and just pushing through that kind of knowledge gaps and having to ask some really stupid basic questions of people to get up to speed. So that for me was was really one difficult time and also trying to build the finance function from the ground up once again, prior to that, coming to finance teams are already kind of ready made that. But you know, I was so used that as a opportunity to say, well, all the things that I quite liked about those teams in those organizations, and how does that kind of perhaps mold the way I think about how we should perhaps approach HGH and so, you know, whilst I didn't necessarily have that direct experience, I think, certainly from an experience of knowing what was good, and it was great, helped inform me in kind of that role. You know, the other piece, perhaps in terms of hurdles is probably more personal more than anything in terms of juggling. Yeah, a number of call life events along the way, as you're trying to kind of navigate and progress your career. And you have a couple that probably springs to mind is the time is probably back in 2016. I think it was when my mother in law was unfortunate, very sick, and my wife and I had to go to the Philippines for about almost two months, during unfortunately, just before year end. And this was the first year in that issue, where we actually decided to prepare the full set of annual audit to report and glossy information but trying to kind of juggle that keep things afloat from A home front and kind of push through on the career front and kind of make sure nothing blows up was certainly difficult one of the most challenging pieces, but you know, in terms of how I overcame that, I think I seriously don't know apart from Scott got through, I had the help of many friends back home, in Philippines and here in Australia that really helped us along the way, certainly family in at least helping me just the end of focus on the work side of things and not have to worry about your or at least, to a certain extent, at least took my kind of mind away from from that level of difficulty. And once again, just putting your head down and just plowing through it, you just got to go go through and your heart.

Richard Holmes

21:04

And again, having having a good boss. Yeah, at that time would have been about trust. And

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

21:09

that is absolutely a key point to make. And I should have called out because, you know, I still remember this day, how kind of all unfolded when when I got the news from from when you come my wife in and I told Richard I went to his office and he said, Go, Go now and we'll figure it out. And it was like this, it would have been one at a time. Don't care what you're going to just go get out the door and this flow what you need. And whilst we were away, we would kind of check in and say like, how much more time do you need? And he would navigate all that. Right? Yeah. So that was

Richard Holmes

21:52

that's valuable. That's good. And you as a leader now in your current role? You also learn from them?

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

21:57

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And for me, you know, it's certainly a case of a trying to kind of not necessarily pay it forward. But you know, that from from an individual as an individual, like, what are the things that engender loyalty and kind of trust within the team? I can't expect that to occur without me kind of, you know, putting myself out there for them. And that's whether it be a kind of basic human right, I think is should be the case. And hopefully, you're not so that I mean, you weren't me. Yeah, Richard, this experience in stature in that regard, but hopefully, there are elements that I can take and use my guys. Yeah,

Richard Holmes

22:48

well, definitely. That's great. And, and you've been in finance for a while now. We've adapted a lot through through COVID. What do you think the future of Finance? Looks like all that, obviously, in the next 10 years?

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

23:00

Yeah, well, I think, you know, it's, the automation piece is just going to continue to evolve and become a whole lot more pervasive, you know, certainly that call it value pyramid of inverting so that you take only 20% of your time to kind of prepare the the information and then the 80% of analyzing and, and you're evaluating that regardless, is only going to progress even further. The, you know, from a skills perspective, I think it really will lend itself to the analytics when I said, I don't think so being able to explain that the narrative, right, I think that most accountants and finance people are really at home within the numbers, but if you'd perhaps try and take them into a different arena and explain it to laypeople. It's a little bit clunky, and it doesn't come across, it doesn't really do themselves justice, which is unfortunate, because I will just say there is a high degree of intellectual ability in what we do, but kind of monetizing, if you will, and so that people can see the value of or why do we have you as opposed to the the RPA bot? Yep, yeah. Yep. Does that is part of the kind of transition that we have to know certainly try and develop in my guys. I think all that decrees.

Richard Holmes

24:45

Yeah, that that business prior to that story, but that skill set of being able to communicate the numbers to non final Yeah. Where it's going to be out, isn't it?

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

24:54

Exactly right. Because you know, I think whether it's some One on the Yeah, that has a passing knowledge of kind of finance or ops guys. at any level, I think that level of like, I don't want to know the debits credits, plus or minus, like what happened in simple terms. And don't give it to me in five minutes, give it to me in 30 seconds. Elevator Pitch of sorts, which is can only really help people not just within their own careers in life in general, I think

Richard Holmes

25:33

that's, that's very true. And just her when we reflect on the last 10 years, how much finances evolve? And from that point of view, just really working with different stakeholders and helping them not hindering them. Correct. So I think that's been the challenge of finance, isn't it? It's all your your your the No. department are going to tell us? No, I'm sorry. We don't want to speak to you.

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

25:52

Yes. Isn't it? Yep. Yep. It's certainly that kind of data driven nice into in terms of being able to quantify why we should or shouldn't do things, you know, drawing attention to to kind of performance or under performance, because these are key inputs as to why decisions are made. I think that's really going to really play itself out in the next couple of days. It's,

Richard Holmes

26:24

it's exciting times for finance.

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

26:26

I think. So I'm biased, obviously. But I think it is, yeah, yes.

Richard Holmes

26:32

I think I mentioned a couple of times where I arrived here in Australia, late 2005. And in finance was very much that back office function, the calculators in the top pocket and the pens. And now it's that real integral cog in businesses, everything. Everyone wants to speak to finance, get their understanding of companies work. Yeah. And, and we've seen like the trend over the last few years, a lot of CFOs going into these CEO.

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

26:57

Yes, yeah, that

Richard Holmes

26:58

said a lot myself. But no, it's exciting time and, and working to work with seven and working Brookfield, they're renowned for having really good cultures. But what what does culture mean to you?

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

27:08

Yeah. And that's interesting question, in a sense, certainly from from a culture perspective, it's for me, and I've been lucky to work in some quite high performing and continue to work in some high performing cultures. And a lot of that, if I think about why those cultures have been the way they are, is really a strong presence in leadership in how they go about their ways. And so not merely just the couple of words on a page or a slide deck, but rightly or wrongly, in terms of that demand for excellence and performance. accountability is something that they've literally lived and breathed, whether it was your ritual Stokes's in HGH. Or your or even the leadership team here is that that high level of not just asking you to do something, because that's what I said, but holding themselves to that same level of discipline, so that you either kind of gravitate toward that and use Okay, like that. That's one I get it, because that's not in the ivory tower. Or you're not an English case, that's fine. You also self select. But you know, certainly I've gravitated towards those kinds of pressure cooker environments. That stupidly if you ask my wife, but that's what I kind of I like, the cut and thrust. Yeah, I like the

Richard Holmes

29:00

the ownership

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

29:01

the stimulation. Yeah, that's right.

Richard Holmes

29:03

Yeah, you're approved here. And in talking about finance, evolving, like what has improved your life, your working life the most?

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

29:12

Yeah. We I think certainly, you know, if I look at the skill set of, you know, accountants coming out these days is is really fantastic. Right. Be a technological their level of articulation. EQ, you know, I think is is really strong and and whether or not it's something that's kind of a function of educational systems or technology or all that kind of stuff. I don't necessarily have an answer for but I think it's a really great I think it's just it's very humbling. And so far as you kind of think while these these kids are doing things that might have Have you been able to do five years ago? Something like that? Yeah. Which is probably a blessing in the curse, right? Because it's sometimes it also breeds a level of perhaps, expectations that you have to really carefully manage. You know, and certainly teasing that out and being quite transparent and upfront with the guys is always difficult to do. But yeah, I'm going to say the skill level of kind of stuff has made my life easier. Yeah, in a technology of being able to kind of remotely do things and log in, as made my life easier in terms of trying to juggle family and personal obligations with regard to live work. You know, I still distinctly remember trying to have to do like, login from home via Citrix and other organizations endeavors, just abominable, like mess. And that was really the kind of impetus for people go well, that's exactly why we don't like let you go work from home, because it's rubbish. But it's been chicken. Yeah,

Richard Holmes

31:19

yeah. So

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

31:21

that that kind of level of, you can be accessible anytime, and you can access the office or your files, anytime there's been, like, wonderful, whether it be on the run, and might have to, you know, shoot a few emails whilst you're watching your daughter doing swimming lessons or something like that, but certainly making my life easier.

Richard Holmes

31:48

And in to your point, the skills of these, the younger people coming through is incredible. I was having a chat with the CFO a couple of weeks ago. And they're about to recruit about 100k analyst role when it came to this role. And when he was talking about it, I was saying about the skill sets that these person has got to be technically strong and very qualified stakeholder management will be our communicate, do all the analysis, the planning, the budgeting, forecasting, it's quite a broad skill set. Yeah, that level of role. And we've got to be brilliant in person. Yes. And it's just like, wow, I can mean for that level of salary for these young people. But there are people like that with that skill set. And you think, oh, was about 15 years ago, there wasn't? Oh, no, when you get people like that in your team, ci makes your life easier. There's

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

32:36

an absolutely you can say that, that there's a lot more unicorns this year, all those attributes and skill sets that you just pointed out, like I said, 1015 years ago, might have been a couple of candidates had eight of the 10, no seven of the 10. But now you have the 10 of the 10. And they've also got these additional, you know, quite a voracious either work ethic or just a kind of inquisitiveness and curiosity, which is really fantastic. I think. These Yeah. Individuals are certainly going to have very long careers in whatever they want to do. I think it's just a matter of hopefully they find the right organizations that can kind of nurture and continue to develop those those attributes. as they progress in their careers, definitely in helping them grow. And

Richard Holmes

33:41

when when you recruit yourself, what what's the most important thing you look for?

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

33:45

Oh, that's Yeah, that's a loaded question, given where they kind of I'm recruiting at the moment, are also these? It's interesting. I don't want to kind of cop it out. But it depends on the level perhaps. Agree with? And yeah, I think if as a general rule, like for me, yeah. Roles aside, is that kind of level of curiosity and inquisitiveness perhaps in as candidates get more experience in across the kind of experience curve. It's not as apparent in England when you interview but I guess you can kind of take it as an excuse in terms of the types of questions that they are so they informed or they you're quite nuanced, as opposed to the one of the 10 best questions to ask on a Google search are identical to differentiate candidates in that way. You're instantly at the younger end of the employee spectrum that if if the kind of Going through the interview and asking you a whole lot more questions in your asking them, that's really good. I find so great. Because there is that hunger. And I really want to know what what I'm getting myself into, which is great, because the last thing you want is there's a disconnect in some alignment of reality and perception. And you know, that doesn't no one. any favors. So yeah,

Richard Holmes

35:30

I do agree with you as well, I think it does depend on the level and your points about curiosity. Once a few of the guests will touch on that as well, being curious, and like, what is this? Yeah, Mark kind of thing? Yeah,

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

35:43

as that is an important thing, because, you know, certainly touching on the point, we kind of spoke about earlier about the future of financing, if we're gonna have people that just kind of accepting what the names are not understanding, like, why is that happened to like, that's sometimes peeling back a couple of layers, you actually realize that it's a different conclusion that we need to reach and therefore that's actually quite valuable, rather than our number is a number.

Richard Holmes

36:16

And to close out, Jeremy, knowing, knowing what you know, now, what would you say to yourself, both in career

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

36:23

in life? And? Yeah, that's an interesting one. So I think, first point, from a from a career perspective is probably just don't chase the numbers. When I say the numbers is in the salary, you know, I think certainly when I was younger, in my query, that was stupid. And yeah, not knowing what was out there, you can kind of pick out like, once I want to hit this number, right. And sometimes clouds your judgment insofar as perhaps the roles that you consider and how you manage your career, and perhaps being a little bit too singularly focused on that. You know, as I've progressed, my career, certainly come to the realization, and thankfully for a while now that the numbers will follow, right, I think if you're good at what you do, and you make the right choices, insofar as mentors organization's roles will take care of itself. Yeah. Yeah. And from the, from a personal sense, you know, it's funny, I actually caught up with some some friends for lunch today. And we had all worked together at Babcock, and brown. And I think one of the things that we kind of looked at it wasn't kind of as a precursor to this, but we kind of thought, well, wouldn't it be great to, like, become parents a bit younger? In life, it sounds really crazy, right? But, you know, for me, that level of balance in my life, that being a father, as provided, certainly, I know makes me a better boss. Employee hopefully has been I'm not sure why. But something that I didn't necessarily bargain on happening as part of the becoming a father and see all the other nice stuff that comes with it. But that knowing that you lost, you might have a really bad day at work and all of this, that it really doesn't matter, like the world will continue, the juggernaut will continue to survive without me if I got hit by a bus or whatever, I think is really important. And grounding for me.

Richard Holmes

38:55

That's, that's, that's great. That's great advice, all of that. And so what you're saying is basically, we should have kids when we're early 20s. So there you go. Yeah, that first from Jeremy. But no, I do. I do get you what you mean, I think I've got kids as well. And once you kids get a bit older, you kind of have that balance. You can kind of focus more on your career yourself. Kind of get what you you know that but how about Jeremy, I think you'd been a great guest and really insightful and lots of wisdom in this one and appreciate your time. And look, we'll have to have you on the podcast again again

JE

Jeremy Eugenio

39:26

soon. Thank you very much. 

Please note that this has been transcribed by AI so there will be typos and parts that will not make sense.