Episode 37, Daniel James, Director of Operations and Ex-Finance Director of James Hardie (ASX 50)

Starting his career in the Big 4, Daniel is a people-focused leader who has recently moved from Finance to Operations.  He has over 20 years of experience across various industry sectors, geographical locations and financial disciplines. 

He is highly strategic and commercially minded and has a proven track record of driving increased productivity and achieving significant growth at the top and bottom line. 

Daniel currently works for James Hardie as Director of Operations and previously as Finance Director. Before this, he worked in Senior Finance roles within Emirate, Travelex, Geodis and Kantar.  

To contact Richard Holmes, please call 0403 513 720 or reach out to richardh@hprconsulting.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardholmesfinancerecruiter/

Transcript

Please note that this has been transcribed by AI/Bots so there may be typos and the occasional strange things happening.

Richard Holmes

0:00

Welcome to the numbers people Podcast, where each week we're going to be speaking with so highly regarded senior finance professionals and career experts looking into the ins and outs of what makes finance people on their teams tick. The podcast is proudly produced in partnership with ACCA. The Association of Chartered certified accountants, the global body of professional chartered becomes immense in his career in the Big Four. Daniel James is a people focused leader who has recently moved from finance into operations. He has over 20 years of experience across a range of industry sectors, geographical locations, and financial disciplines. highly strategic and commercially minded. He has a proven track record of driving increased productivity, and achieving significant growth at both top and bottom line. Daniel currently works for James Hardy is Director of Operations and previously as finance director here. Prior to this, he has worked in senior finance roles within Emirates travel x g, this encounter to name Daniel, how are you? Good to catch up?

Daniel James

1:08

Very well. Thanks for yeah, thanks for having me

Richard Holmes

1:10

on. No, no, it's good. All foreigners you on the show for a while. And eventually we've tracked you down. And as per the introduction, Daniels recently gone into an operational role, the last few months, and I've known Daniel for a number of years. He's got a great story. Take it away.

Daniel James

1:23

Okay, thanks, Richard. Yeah, look, my story is, was probably pretty traditional for a little while through the sort of the accounting world. And yeah, it's led me into a fairly new space recently, which I'm really excited about. I guess just a little bit of the background, up or down originally, not too many of us around, got into the accounting field pretty early on. And you know, did my big for my CA, and RAC a lot of people did sort of back in the 90s, was headed over to the UK for a while. So went over there thinking I'd travel and have a couple of jobs, and then come back a couple years later, somehow, I ended up over there for about eight years. And really just started that career outside of audit, I worked through a number of different industries, a number of different sort of commercial and sort of industry finance roles, across transport, industrial projects, media and market research, and so on. And really just Yeah, I found I really enjoyed being on that side of the fence and not the audit side where I was able to contribute to what a business was doing, learn from some really, you know, some really good people and some experienced CFOs. And just started to carve out sort of that path of where I wanted to go over the, you know, the few years after that I had a stint back in Australia to work in foreign currency ended up back in the UK, again, for another few years, got into logistics, that where there was a finance director role. So the first time I sort of taken that seat sort of at the table, also had some exposure into general management, which sort of, I guess, carved out a new direction from where I'd always wanted to go. My you know, when I sort of was first doing my training, you know, the goal was, you know, be CFO and a big listed business, and it was always finance based. And I found that, you know, the more I started to get into those roles, from a GM sort of influence or space, just realize that, you know, you could use that financial mindset and that sort of financial background, and apply it to, you know, just the broader business space and have some real impact. And, you know, CEOs can come from a lot of different backgrounds, as we know, you can be sales and marketing, it can be operations, I think, more and more, we have seen really good progress from finance professionals moving into that space, because you don't meet a CEO or a GM these days that doesn't have that good financial understanding, you know, whether it's dealing with private equity owners, whether it's dealing with listed business investors and stakeholders, you need to have that understanding if you can come from the financial side, but you don't really start to bolt on some of that good operational understanding sets you up fairly well. And I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to do some development and training, and then took some chances when they came along, you know, took a deputy managing director space at that business, which I really enjoyed a little bit after that moved back to Australia, which was was always the plan. And yeah, I ended up a couple of roles in my current role at James Hardy, which started as controller moved into finance director and most recently, as you mentioned, is sort of running operations as well. So having the chance to again, utilize the background and the sort of the financial mindset if you like, but getting involved in manufacturing supply chain procurement ESG is probably the one that I hadn't done a lot of before, but it's becoming more and more critical in every business. That's been really interesting, but not loving it loving the chance to be in the business and to really have a have a role in driving outcomes and creating value within the business. I mean, so very excited for the shift. And yeah, excited about where it's gonna go next.

Richard Holmes

4:43

And looking back, did you have a plan like you touched on it when you left big Ford did you have a plan of right I want to be the Etosha before like general management operations. Was that always the end goal for yourself? Or did you kind of go with the flow?

4:54

CFA was the goal. It was listed business CFO, that was where I wanted to get to and it's I was sort of just fixated on, that's what it was gonna be. I had someone early on that sort of said to me, you know, when you get in your car to drive somewhere, you know where you're going, you know, the route you're going to take. So why would you not do the same thing, something as important as your career with your career, you should know where you want to get to, you should try and map out the path that you're gonna take to get there, which is great. But absolutely, the most important thing is you got to realize that that's not necessarily the way it's gonna go. There'll be road closures, there'll be diversions, you need to take the path invariably, for most people is not going to be exactly what you needed, or what you thought it was going to be. So for me, I didn't see myself in the role I'm in now, that through, you know, just experiencing the different things you experience through different roles in your career, you find things that you enjoy, you find the things that you know, that work for you and don't work for you, where your skills or your your approach or your mindset, or whatever it might be really fit well. And for me, as much as I finance is still my core and my bread and butter, I just found, you know, I really enjoyed that challenge. And so that that ability to influence and create value from within something that was a bit broader in sort of right now operations and sort of that general management sort of space,

Richard Holmes

6:09

going to the UK, was that something you always wanting to do? Or did you just kind of fall into it?

Daniel James

6:15

That was growing up in Darwin thing. So we made a lot of opportunities up there. Yeah, it was just wanting to, I guess, test yourself a little bit, get onto a bigger stage. Again, nothing against anyone that goes up and down and chooses to stay in Darwin. I just wanted to be able to experience a few different opportunities and have some chances to move through different industries. The advantage of work in a small audit firms such as I did up there with EY, you get exposed to a bunch of different industries, you're not just in one industry vertical that you then naturally progressing to yourself. So I was keen to sort of get out there and see what the world had to offer. Not really glad I did it. If you get the chance to sort of break out and experience new things, I highly recommend it and I wouldn't change what I did. Having said that, there was always hope I was always going to be sort of ending up back here. At some point, I could imagine

Richard Holmes

7:03

going from Darwin to London, would have been a bit of a culture shock.

Daniel James

7:07

Well, ironically, I ended up in a little town called Winslow, which was about a third the size of Darwin when I first moved over. So yeah, it wasn't exactly what I plan. But I, again, through a contact, the opportunity came up to work for AstraZeneca, which obviously is pretty well known these days, which sort of is one of the lessons I learned along the way was be ready when opportunities come along. Because again, I fully expected to turn up in London with my backpack on my back, find a job, you know, settle down in Earls Court, or shepherds, Bush or something like that there's most other Australians did, and ended up living in a house with 15 other people, but an opportunity came up. And it was a really good chance to get a foothold and start things over there. And so yeah, just being agile, to that point you made earlier about having a really set course. Just be prepared to make some diversions. And you know, you got to reassess that each time something comes up. But for me, it was it was a sidestep, it wasn't exactly what I planned. I did end up in London about six months later, so I didn't get there in the end. But no, it was just it was an opportunity. That was something I didn't want to pass up. And I guess set me on a bit of a course for when I did eventually make it down to the Capitol.

Richard Holmes

8:13

And it's a, like I said, just being agile and just going for it. Good opportunity. Let's give it a go. Now,

Daniel James

...

8:19

that's right, I think that it's certainly one of the things I've continued to live my career by is that concept of always be ready, just things are going to come up sometimes you don't know when they're going to be, they're not necessarily what you may have been expecting, your next move was going to be your next opportunity was going to be. So be ready. Just you know, always be ready for when that does come up. Because you want to be able to you want to be on the backfoot you want to be able to grab something, particularly you know, could be a really great opportunity. So you want to be ready for it. And just have that open mind. be agile in your mind, to take a step that may not have been the exact step that you thought you're gonna take. But you know, for me personally, it's one that I've tried to always assess each time those opportunities do come along. And it's definitely led me to where I am today. I would expect if I'd been on the path previously, I would have still been in a finance role, which there's nothing wrong with obviously. But you know, I'm where I've got to today because of that ability to just sort of be agile and take the chances when they're there.

Richard Holmes

9:18

It's a good segue Daniel some a first question for you is like, what advice would you give to someone wanting to somebody looks at your Korean love or career like Daniels? What advice would you give?

Daniel James

...

9:28

I think it's that that very point I made about being ready to divert from where you thought when those opportunities come up. That's certainly what happened with me. You could think you know, where you want to get to and at that point in your career, you could very well be you know, on that path. You'll find along the way that there'll be things that aren't exactly what you thought they were going to be, you know, you could be down a finance path and you could actually realize some of those things, particularly as you move into more senior roles that you need to be across. You know, for me there was a CFO portfolio that naturally weren't, weren't as suitable for me, they just weren't things I naturally gravitated to. And there was other parts I didn't really enjoy. And the more you sort of work through it, and you have the ability to sort of just be adaptable, there'll be sideways moves you can take that can be really beneficial to you as well. So just to be prepared to have that end goal in mind, but not be too fixated on what it is, because it can change life. As you go through it, your priorities will change your family position will change, our friends will come into your life that you realize, you know, maybe may reset what your priorities are, you know, being ready to move in a different direction from what you may have first thought is probably you know, one of those things, I definitely suggest that people should always do, don't be too fixed and you know, have a bit of agility in your mind and have an open mind because there'll be twists and turns, you know, strapping, enjoy the ride, and just be prepared for that change, because we only get one go. So you know, you want to make the most of it. And I

Richard Holmes

10:59

see that working in the recruitment industry, we meet a lot of candidates, especially the younger generation coming through where they just want to work for the blue chips, I just want to work for this branded company like the collet barbecue brands. And I say to him, we're looking in some of the small and medium companies can give you more broader roles and other career paths kind of thing. And that not just want to work for disinterest in a time zone, you're like, it's not my job to tell people what to do or what not to do. But we definitely see that with a lot of people. And you touched on before about your your network, I think you were talking about London, in terms of your network through your career, is that been an ongoing thing for you, and you've been mindful of your network and how to use it. If you

Daniel James

...

11:34

travel overseas or work overseas. It's definitely one of the things I probably found the biggest challenge when I moved back. And I think that anyone that goes to live or work in a different location should be mindful of that, it is something you need to consciously make an effort to work on. When you return into a market, we see so much, you know, not every job gets advertised. Although rails come through network, come through connections and so on. And you need to get yourself out there, which is not always the comfort zone for accountants and financial people, you do need to always consciously work on that, you know, again, it's not just turn up to the odd event here and there. But try and make meaningful relationships with people really, you know, try and listen, try and learn, try and get involved in a few different things and build some good connections through it. Because it is really important, you can be lucky you can be within one organization, your whole career. And that network on a broader sense, you know, may not be as important for you. Having said that, even then within the business you're in, it's just as important to build that network and build those connections. I'm lucky enough, the railroad slipped into now, sort of came about, largely because of connections I've made, you know, over the last sort of 18 months from the role I've previously been in, where I'd had to work with, you know, people in the US and in different parts of the organization globally. But you know, making sure you build those relationships, you know, you prove yourself when I say relationships, not just about you know, socially, but really establishing good working connections and relationships with people. Because you never know when something's gonna come along that that you don't want to burn bridges the opposite, you know, you need to make sure you build the right connections with people, you know, if someone's going to come in to bat for you, or really put you forward for something, you've developed that in the right way and earned that respect along the way. So the network piece, again, you know, you set off on your career, you think about technical skills, and you know, harder skills, invariably, the softer skills, and the networking piece becomes more and more critical. Particularly as you get towards the pointy end of your career. I think

Richard Holmes

13:30

it's really important, isn't it and who's influenced you the most in your career.

Daniel James

...

13:34

The person that they're, I would say has influenced me the most ironically, is someone I only worked with, for somewhere between six and 12 months, she was a board director in the business, I was in listed business, she stepped into a interim executive role as interim CFO for a period of time. So the role I was in at the time, sort of reported directly through to her. And what I found was I got more from that time in terms of leadership and managing people than I had in my entire career today. And it was all about getting the best out of every individual in that team. The way she approached people was something's I hadn't seen before. It was genuine listening, and engagement and how to treat people that got a reaction that I've just never seen. Again, I think financial people, accounting people, we can get so caught up in numbers, data, facts, hard skills, cetera. What I learned from her was the human side. It was treating everyone as an individual, genuinely listening, engaging. And the results that she got of the people in her team and even in the broader sort of team was incredible. I was literally sitting next to her at a dinner once in the US. And I had a text from someone in my team that she had personally sent a letter to to thank them for something. And they texted me they couldn't believe that they'd had a handwritten letter from the CFO that had literally arrived at their house. And you know this had taken 45 minutes to write this letter, arrange for someone to send it to this guy's home address. But the impact those few minutes had was incredible. And again, you know, as I said, we get so caught up in goals and KPIs and facts and everything else. But that humanistic side being the motivation out of that individual, far greater than anything you could do from setting them a better KPI or a smart objective, or whatever it might be. It was really impactful. And it just feeds into that concept, you know, that the importance of leadership, importance of people, but treating everyone as an individual, you know, there is no one size fits all when it comes to managing people. And you could have two people with exactly the same profile, same background or whatever it might be. But getting the best out of those two individuals is not necessarily going to be the same. And you just need to take the time and not try and think that you know that everyone will react to the same things. But you only find that out by actually finding out a bit about them. That's the big thing I learned from her. So that, for me has been something I've tried to take on myself, and really try to instill in my, my style of leadership. I'm certainly not there yet. I'm not going to pretend that I am. It's something that certainly I want to keep working on. But yeah, seeing that type of reaction. And that approach was probably the biggest thing I've taken from anyone that I've sort of worked with, or, or sort of had experiences with

Richard Holmes

16:20

just listening to them. Daniel, it sounds sounds so simple. Just listen to your stuff, pay attention to them. Such a basic task of writing a letter has an impact on you. And on obviously, the person for the entire group

Daniel James

...

16:34

is astounding how sometimes the you know, things you say them, and it seems like such common sense. But we don't always do that. Because again, I think we do get so caught up in in the hard side, and not that softer side. And again, as I say, listening, you know, of course, everyone will sit in the meeting, and they're listening, you know, the concept of people talk about of active listening, of really making sure you're engaging in what that person is saying, and not just having it come in, and then go straight out again, but genuinely hearing what they're saying, as opposed to just listening, the words that are coming out. And you know, it goes into that broader sense of, you know, if you really want to get the best out of your people, it's making sure they have a voice, you know, they do speak up, you encourage it, then you genuinely listen to it, the quicker anyone learns that they don't know all the answers themselves, they don't always get everything, right. And all those people in your team, you know, they have great ideas as well, you know, the more people can, can really take from that and not just assume that, you know, if you're in a more senior position that you know, more or you know, you're always going to make the right call, you know, you're not everyone's going to have great ideas. And you just need to keep sort of building that. And building diversity, I guess is the other bit that really comes out from that. You build diverse teams, you get diverse ideas, that's something again, I think, is what I really got from working with this individual for a period of time was taking different views in and then distilling all of that to feed into your decision making process.

Richard Holmes

17:56

Listen, and see that just reminded me I was speaking to a lady, this is about two months ago, I asked her why she was looking to leave and she said, Well, my boss just call me the wrong name. This morning. She'd been there for two years, like I've just got no respect in this business. And she was at a meeting and the input of everyone else could have the wrong name. Again, not for the first time when she said, that's enough, I'm out. You do you

Daniel James

...

18:18

hear so much these days that you know, people don't leave organizations or companies they leave because of leaders or they choose to go or to stay because of leaders is hard. And when you're really busy. And you're flat out making time for people, again, as a natural inclination is to go back to that spreadsheet, keep working on that, or that PowerPoint? Oh, you know, think about replying to that email. You know, if you're doing that at the expense of your people in your team, then it's not going to be worked out well in the long run. Because, you know, those people are ultimately what's going to make you and the organization and your team successful or not. So if you're not putting the three in the right time into that, then you're not gonna get to the right outcome.

Richard Holmes

18:56

What's the best advice you've you've ever received? I think it comes back to

Daniel James

...

18:59

that listening piece, that concept of appreciating that you don't know everything, you're not always right, making sure that you know, this is someone some again, that I worked with, and to work through that concept of of encouraging your team to speak up, not everyone's going to do it. And again, what you want to do is really coax out from people that trust, you need to build the trust within a team so that people feel they can have a voice, knowing that they may make a mistake, they may say the wrong thing. But actually encouraging people to have that voice is the only way you're truly gonna get all the views to then allow you to make the right decisions. But as I say, you still need to be listening. And not just hearing but actually, you know, really, truly taking in what they're saying. That for me was was one of the things again that I got from someone that I probably hadn't really thought about before. Again, early in your career. You can be confident and honest on a good path. And you do you can get into this mode where you know you think you know everything you think you're always right. But you're not. That for me was one of those things that knocks you down a little bit, you know, earlier on in your career when you get told that, but you know, it's something that's really important to take on, because leadership is all about decisions, you paid in a leadership role to make decisions. And the better you arm yourself to make the right decisions, the more successful you're going to be, or the more likely to be successful, you'll be you're not going to get them all right, still, but making sure you know, you're taking those views in from your people. You know, you're empowering people to speak up. You know, that was that advice I had pretty early on to have the humility to know you're not always right. So the more you can take on others views, the better you're going to be.

Richard Holmes

20:35

And I think as well, I've talked about this with other guests as well, I think when you're in the 20s, you got to be right, you've got to have that perception of Daniels got all the answers. And if he doesn't, he's not doing his job properly kind of thing. And it's, it's interesting as we get older, it's just not the case, isn't it? Yeah, there's

Daniel James

...

20:49

no question that evolves for me, you can talk what you like about leadership skills, management skills, and you know, leading people in the right way. Again, when you're first starting your career, that's not going to get you where you need to get to either you need to have the technical skills and the hard skills, because you're not going to be able to jump straight to it, it is one of those things that you need to be conscious of, and you need to keep working on the softer skills, the hardest skills later in your career, just become a ticket to the game, you know, if you're, you're sitting in an interview for the new role, the hard skills are assumed everyone's gonna assume you've got all that already. You've built that through your career. And then what's going to differentiate you is those softer skills around leadership, attitude, mindset, ambition, and so on. But you can't shortcut it either. You do need to build up the hard skills, you need to do the trading, you'll live through those long hours of you know, if it's in the accounting world, it's going through the journals or going through the analysis or writing the reports or whatever it might be, you can't shortcut that you still would absolutely get all that. But as it bends starts to evolve, but unfortunately, you know, in life, I don't think there's too many shortcuts to that you need to put in the hard yards first and and develop that base. But then certainly the booth is going to take you forward after that is that ability to, you know, to lead, manage, have the right mindset and so on, that's got to come with it as well,

Richard Holmes

22:10

in the job that you're currently in, you've got to nail that job.

Daniel James

...

22:12

Now that's right. I mean, it's you know, success comes from always believe that it comes through hard work, you know, you can't sit back and believe that I've got all the skills, I'm great at leadership, I read all the books, I've done all the courses, to where now what you're doing, most of the time, it's not going to get handed to you on a platter. And so you do need to put the work in have the right, you know, work ethic, work ethic is one of those things, I always look for people because you want someone that's prepared to put the work in, and then you know, they can reap the rewards from that, you know, through their career. But you know, there's no supplement or replacement for actually experiencing it and putting that work in an effort and experiencing it. That's where you're going to learn the things that you realize where you need to write your course, because of the mistakes you make through your career. But as you say, you've you've got to keep doing the best you could do and not just expect it to come to you.

Richard Holmes

23:01

What's the worst piece of advice you've ever received in your career, or in life?

Daniel James

...

23:05

I think that I feel pretty lucky that I there's not too many things that jumped out. But what I think I would say is people saying it's fine, you know, just trust me or don't worry, that's not important. These can be fine in the right context, where you've established, you know, something with the right people that you trust. But they can also be really dangerous types of things to assume, to assume something's going to be okay to assume someone's got something, again, coming back to that concept of, you know, when you're in a role, and you're in that role to make decisions, you've got to make sure that again, you've established the right ability to trust people and going a little bit blindly on faith or not making sure that you do the homework yourself, if you need to be across something could just be very dangerous. And it can end up leading you down a path that can ultimately be problematic for you. But yeah, so I think that's the only real thing that comes to mind. I guess I'm lucky, I think I've had too many things that really set me off course, from an advice perspective, but it's just those little day to day type things.

Richard Holmes

24:06

Your point about assuming assumption, hey, it gets us even at the stage of our careers, like you assume something tends to bite you on the backside of it.

Daniel James

...

24:15

Absolutely. It can certainly be you know, it can be the downfall if you assume too much, which again, comes back to that concept of putting in the hard work yourself making sure that you are comfortable with that decision you make because you've put in what you need to do to be able to get there and make that decision. And as I say, I think the beauty of it is build the right team. Building the right team or creating that sort of perfect team is about developing that relationship with your team, with your peers, and so on that does give you that flexibility where you have established that trust. You know, people will escalate things when they need to, but also you're able to empower them to make their own decisions when they need to. It comes with time and it comes with you know, putting the right people into the right places and establishing that that's a luxury when you get to that point, it's great when you have, you know, because when you do build that with your team, it's beneficial for everyone. And you can really, you know, achieve some great things as a group. But yeah, I think blindly doing it or doing it too early can also be very dangerous

Richard Holmes

25:11

in social before, Daniel, that you've been fairly lucky in your career, have you made any mistakes? Or have you failed at anything, and if so, what

Daniel James

...

25:19

happened, failed at tons of things, I think anyone that says otherwise is probably getting themselves. You know, for me, it's not about a project or a specific job task. I think, for me, if I look back, and I think, you know, what was something that I failed at was probably losing sight of what's really important. And I think you could apply that not just to work, but to broader life as well, you can end up sometimes trying to spin too many plates at once, I think we've all been there where you've got a million things on and you've got pressures coming from lots of different directions. And invariably, we just want to keep all of those plates spinning at the same time. And I would say that, you know, for me, when you're trying to do that, and sometimes you can lose sight of which of the ones that are really, really critically important. And as I say, not just at work, but in your entire life, timing is everything. And there's certain things in life, you can't get back. For me, what I've learned from some of those failures is taking the time to get to your kids sports day, or you know, to help them with their homework or something like that. Those are the plates in life that you need to take the time to keep spinning, even if it means you don't get that email out. Until later on that night, you don't finish that presentation until you know, tomorrow morning, or whatever it might be. Most of the time, that's not going to be the end of the world. You know, if you go too far, and you're back and you think, you know, I miss things, or I let things go that, you know, you could genuinely regret. That's a much bigger failure than not getting that email out or getting that presentation down or, you know, finishing that piece of work off. There's always obviously, you know, particularly if you really do invest into your career, there's going to be things you miss and sacrifices you make, personally for your career. But you know, the more you can just try and always be reassessing and making sure you don't lose sight of priorities. And what's really important that for me from various failures along the way, and you know, across my life, that for me would be sort of the biggest learning I've tried to take out of that just don't lose sight of what's really important. Unfortunately, you know, if we leave a job will be replaced pretty quickly. That's the case, you know, most of us most of the time, but there's other things in life that are incredibly important. And I just think not wanting to lose sight of those would be the biggest message

Richard Holmes

27:29

moving recently into the operational side, how do you continue to stay on top of your role in terms of learning,

Daniel James

...

27:35

I think that's definitely something that's difficult when everyone is so time poor these days, we could all spend all of every day attending webinars and conferences, and there's so many great things out there that we keep hearing about, you'd love to better to take the time to attend, what I found is being connected to what's happening in the business. And then prioritizing off that as to where you need to spend that finite amount of time that you've got to invest into learning and, you know, thinking through or strategizing around where that next investment needs to be, or where we need to put some extra resource into that from his probably be in the way of how you know how I learned where that needs to go, is being connected, you know, talk to your people, talk to your teams, get out on the ground, that's the best way, you know, hearing what people's pain points are, what challenges they face in the business, for me has been the best way of determining where we need to go. If we're setting strategy. And if we're determining, you know, what we need to sort of look at new ways of doing, whether it's tech, whether it's resources, whatever it might be going and then doing the learning, understanding what you need to do, and where you're going to get the best return. That's been the approach I've taken for that is really trying to be connected, to understand where you need to take that time. Because yeah, ultimately, as I say, we've only got so many hours in the day that we can put into development and moving things forward. And unfortunately, we just can't do it all. And you just need to continue to reassess based on those business priorities.

Richard Holmes

29:01

And I should touch on before Daniel, like you learn every day, and like how much and all the different stakeholders and your different team members, you'll be picking up nuggets. All right, that's how that connects.

Daniel James

...

29:12

Absolutely. Moving into operations. And again, you've got to understand that, you know, there's people in different roles that will know a hell of a lot more than you do. And you just need to keep sort of picking through it and try to then you know, disseminate that and take that into where you spend your time where you're going to get the best return for your time, which as I say then feeds into that concept of where are you going to best develop in order to benefit the business the most

Richard Holmes

29:38

been in your operations role and looking at finance from an operations point of view? What do you think the future of finance looks like? Why you've obviously in a lot in your career, what do you see the future?

Daniel James

...

29:48

There's been so much talk of automation. I think it's definitely going to keep going there's definitely gonna be more automation, particularly in terms of those tasks or roles that natural in themselves to being very process driven or structured, I think we will definitely continue to move more towards automation in that space. But I'm not someone that believes that then you know, people don't have a role, I just find that people will naturally migrate more into being more integrated with the business and not siloed in terms of a task based finance role, but taking the outcomes or the outputs, taking the data and the insights that come from that, and integrating more to be partnering with operational commercial type areas of the business, to facilitate better decision making to drive the right outcome. I'm a huge believer that, you know, people with that financial mindset, and you know, the type of gearing of the brain that people in finance have has huge value in terms of being integrated with a business. Because it's a very different mindset to a salesperson, or, you know, someone that's operating a manufacturing line, or you know, someone that's working, moving product or inventory around a warehouse, it's a different approach, different mindset, and they complement each other well. That's where I see a finance function becoming much more migrating towards more people being integrated. And partnering, you know, we used to talk about business partnering and what that really means, but it's truly taking the financial data and financial mindset and approach, and driving it more into business decisions. Financing is still a support function. In most businesses, it's there to support but the more value we can create, from how it supports the business, because I think where we're finance functions will go more in the future.

Richard Holmes

31:32

And I'll just touch on, we are seen over the last few years, a lot of these CEOs, appointments been taken by CFOs, it's interesting to very much enjoy your talk,

Daniel James

...

31:42

you have to it's, as I say, I don't think you'll have too many CEOs that are pure finance people. So you have to have the business understanding, commercial nows, you know, good understanding of how the operational side works. But equally, you can't be a CEO that doesn't have a very strong understanding of finance, and the way that impacts and flows through, you know, whether it be you know, about available cash, you know, to invest into capital expenditure, or research and development, or whatever it might be, you've got to be able to articulate that, to shareholders, and analysts and investors, you've got to be able to articulate it within your management team. And I think that, as I say, I keep saying that, and I believe that that financial mindset lends itself really well, where you can take up those opportunities to learn a business and understand how it works, it really creates an opportunity for finance professionals to move into that broader general management space. It's an absolutely critical feature of a CRO General Manager.

Richard Holmes

32:39

With all the knowledge you've got now, you've been in the career for some years now, what's the one thing you wish you'd known to start your career?

Daniel James

...

32:45

I think probably the people piece, and how important that is, I think that, as I say, you get so focused at the start on hard skills. And I think when you first start to manage teams, you know, you think that one size fits all and you and you try to do that with getting the best other people. So, you know, I think right at the start, you know, being really conscious and aware of how important that's going to be, the further you get into career that it's not about knowing the most about tax or financial markets or about, you know, the general ledger or balance sheet or whatever it might be, it's ultimately going to come down to how will you lead and manage people, again, caveat that by saying you still need to go through all of that, you still need to develop that base of hard skills, and strong technical ability and so on. But you know, starting that journey of people, Leadership, Culture, etc, is really critical to ultimately get you want to go down that path and continue to progress, you've really got to have a good approach to early on.

Richard Holmes

33:41

That's a great point, because that's not really emphasized the state of careers, even to this day, like I don't hear of many younger people coming through going on people development courses, hasn't changed that much in 20 years.

Daniel James

...

33:54

The other thing we continue to see is people get promoted based on doing a good job in the role they're in, which is based on technical, hard skills, whatever it might be, they've done a great job as that senior accountant, we're going to make them an accounting manager. They've now got a team of five away you go you know, people don't get training they didn't you there's not me, I might have changed. But when I was at uni, I was doing courses on cost accounting, management, accounting, tax, economics, whatever it might be. I wasn't doing courses on leading and managing and influencing, you know, and so on. And there's obviously some great things you can do with that later in your career. But yeah, early in your career, it's not something you personally sort of emphasize and take the time to work on. As I say it's absolutely what is going to get you further along. You know, the later in your career you get

Richard Holmes

34:44

there's a business idea right there on your Absolutely. You know what in finance or criminals while we do see some great people and and they are just very just reserved, intimidating, you know, they're like, I know that a good guy or a good lady and and you just want them We've kind of come out the shell of it,

Daniel James

...

35:01

things like speaking in front of groups of people doesn't naturally lend itself to someone who is an accountant, sales and marketing person you'd normally think is going to be much more comfortable going out talking to people that are no speaking in front of groups. And again, that's a generalization. Not all of them are gonna then be comfortable. I certainly was not, I wasn't comfortable with that early on. I remember in a role I was in, in a job in the UK, I was the managing director had a unfortunate incident in his family and had to sort of completely step away from the business. And it was right when the chairperson and board of bigger group company was going to be in town. And I had to get up on stage and present for about 20 minutes, to a couple of 100 people. And I was petrified. Because it was way as bad as far out of my comfort zone as you could get heart was pumping before I got on stage and so on. And you know, I just couldn't get on stage, I had a microphone lapel microphone thing, and which is really not, not me, not my comfort zone. But she afterwards, I looked back and I thought, Wow, I'm so glad I got that opportunity that was great loved it comes back to that concept of taking the opportunities when they're there, not being afraid by them will undoubtedly have reservations. And they'll be things you need to conquer within yourself, that is just natural fear. But push yourself through, I've seen different graphics out there around comfort zone and the fear zone and the growth zone and so on. And you've got to push through that fear zone, if you're truly going to grow. If you stay in your comfort zone, you're not gonna continue to grow as an individual and in your career. And so you've just got to push yourself sometimes. And that was an example for me of something I was, you know, really fearful of doing. Loved it afterwards, again, but I do enjoy, do I love it, not necessarily, you're gonna get the heart pumping every time you have to do it. But you know, you do it that first time and you realize it's not quite as scary as you thought it was going to be, again opens up, you know, future options for you and keeps you going. So that for me was a big one of pushing through that fear, and taking those opportunities when they come along.

Richard Holmes

37:02

It's a funny thing, self doubt, fear didn't eventuate that it was just all in your head.

Daniel James

...

37:06

Yeah, nothing. I think they're all the whole world in end from me having to get up and do that. And actually ended up being the opposite. It's something I ended up really enjoying, and felt really positive about afterwards. But the time he first told me, I was just like, wow, like, couldn't think anything worse. It's conquering those fears, those self doubts, absolutely.

Richard Holmes

37:26

What's been the favorite thing about your career,

Daniel James

37:28

I've been lucky enough to work in a bunch of different places around the world, different companies in different industries with people from all over the world. I love being a big part of some big projects. I worked on a rail project in the UK where we actually did a business case and a new railway station came out of it that serviced a whole bunch of people that didn't have a train station before things like that. They're great. I was been part of some turnarounds or recovery missions in companies with the celebration we had when we you know, we had a loss making business and we drove it out. And we got to break even we ended the year, literally making 1800 pounds of profit. That was it was that finally in the black and not in the red. And I would dare say the celebrations would have eroded that entirely for the fact that we'd been on that path. But I think you know, really the biggest thing, the favorite thing would be the people that you meet along the way the connections you make. I've met some incredible people, some connections are made that I'll have with me for the rest of my life. And I think that's been a favorite thing. It's not about again, the heart achievements or whatever it might be, it comes down to people and those opportunities that you get to meet different people in different places and just open yourself up to that experience.

Richard Holmes

38:43

You touched me before in terms of pressure, when you do feel overwhelmed and got a lot going on. When you do feel overwhelmed. What do you

Daniel James

38:50

do, I think requires it comes down to you've got to prioritize. And to do that you need to take time, you know, when you're really under the pump, you can have this tendency to just keep running as hard as you can, whatever issue you're trying to tackle. You think I've just got to keep going and going and going. Certainly, you know from experience, what I've learned, taking time out to rebalance yourself, get your head straight is absolutely critical. And taking that time will pay back exponentially. Rather than just trying to keep running at something if you're not running at it efficiently, or worse if you're running in the wrong direction, but you've been so caught up in it. So for me, you've got to take that time to prioritize and make sure what you're doing is what you really shouldn't be doing and what's going to have the biggest impact. It comes down to you know, making sure you're looking after yourself physically and mentally. So taking that time, don't just mean take five minutes. Think about your work list again and then pick what's most important but what works for you if it's going for a run or a walk or spending time with family or you know, calling a made up or meditation, yoga, whatever it is for you that allows you to get your head in the right space for me, you know was used to be going for a run, that used to be my way of clearing my head when it's too cluttered, you go for a run, and you know, sure the work stuff will probably infiltrate where you're at, you're just doing it in a clear space and trying to get yourself back to where you need to get to, I think these days as well, you know, talking to loved ones that you trust, maybe bouncing some ideas off them can be a really good way of getting yourself back to the right space. Without question for me, if you know, if you're overwhelmed, in any sense, whether it's at work, personal life, whatever it might be, it's just taking that time taking that time out to having a pause and stopping and getting to the right place before you do sort of throw yourself back into it and sort of carrying on,

Richard Holmes

40:38

as you said, just taking a break. To finish off Daniel, tell me something not many people know about it.

Daniel James

40:44

Maybe I don't know whether it is common in for accountants by trade or not. I'm a bit of an adrenaline junkie, bungee jumping skydiving. I love scuba diving. And one of the things on my bucket list is to go cage diving with great whites. That's something I've always wanted to do and definitely want to do. And yeah, for me, it's I love being outdoors and getting out in nature. And that that concept of pushing yourself a little continuing to push through that fear zone we talked about earlier, but challenging yourself to go a little bit further than you've done before doing it safely and all that sort of thing as well. But yeah, that's something I enjoy doing in my time. That doesn't always line up with a stereotypical account. But yeah, definitely something for me that I love doing.

Richard Holmes

41:22

It's all about experiences, as you touched on with the speech out to make.

Daniel James

Daniel

41:26

Absolutely, yeah, push yourself that a little bit harder, and you'll find some things that you really enjoy doing. Yeah. So don't be afraid to experience new things and really get out there.

Richard Holmes

41:34

But hey, Daniel, I think you've been a great guest and it's been fascinating listening to you. Hopefully we'll have you on the show again sometime soon.

41:40

But yeah, Richard, thanks very much for having me.